slovknigfandomcom-20200215-history
Forum:Flood
Flood POPLAVOD ---- Combination of poplava and povod / povoden --Steevenusx 15:28, 14 August 2009 (UTC) *RU: наводнение,паводок *BY: паводка *UA: повінь,потоп *PL: powódź *CZ: povodeň *SK: povodeň *SL: poplava *HR: poplava,potop *BS: poplava,potop *SR: poplava,potop *MK: поплава *BG: потоп,наводнение *– poplava: 1.125 votes (23 mln. speakers) *– povod': 1 votes (50 mln. speakers) *– povoden': 1 votes (18 mln. speakers) *– potop: 0.875 votes (75 mln. speakers) *– navodnenije: 0.5 votes (145 mln. speakers) *– pavodok: 0.5 votes (145 mln. speakers) *– pavodka: 0.5 votes (9 mln. speakers) *– povin': 0.25 votes (47 mln. speakers) *– navodnenie: 0.25 votes (9 mln. speakers) ---- Moraczewskovih komentari: Again the combination doesn't seem to work. At least for Russian. There must be something wrong in the voting. You should count navodnenie and navodnenije as the same word. Pavodok and pavodka are also almost similar. Macedonian also has potop, and Russian also has it, while pavodok is moreless seldom used (may be seldom in Moscow?). So, *''potop'' 3 votes *''povod(en)'' 2 votes *''poplava'' 1.5 votes *''pavodok'' 1.5 votes *''navodnenie'' 1.5 votes *''povin'' 0.5 votes. Potop and povoden win. By the way we can take in advance that there's a common verb "topit'", and from this verb we can make a noun. zatopenie for example? potopenie? Slovio has potop and zatopenie btw... --Moraczewski 19:14, 14 August 2009 (UTC) According to the dictionary, Czech also has potopa... that is pretty similar with potop. And zatopienie is really used in Polish. So, potop and zatopenie seem to satisfy everyone... --Moraczewski 19:36, 14 August 2009 (UTC) POPLAVOD I did not personally create this word. Our co-workers from Praha and Zagreb suggested its use (I had asked them which word I should use for "flood" prior to my posting in the www.Blognik.com forum (you-Andrej- used the word "flood" in describing the blognik.com forum). They remarked that the "plav" portion of the word made it much more recognizable to both languages as relating to rain/crying/shedding of water (tears). We already have potop in Slovio, which can always be used. I suppose we could have three options. --Steevenusx 17:17, 15 August 2009 (UTC) Yes, it can make this word more clear for poplava languages, but... There is really very little of povoden, and not any part of word understandable for Russian. For me the only association is поплавок(a float, a part of fishing equipment). --Moraczewski 17:52, 15 August 2009 (UTC) ANDREJ - ''' * First, I again emphasize that SLOVIOSKI is ''NOT'' SLOVIANSKI. '''Slovioski includes and ENCOURAGES logical constructions - not just natural constructions (although that is not the case here). * Second, I did not create the word poplavod - it was suggested by a group of about 25 Czechs & Serbo-Croatians as a word that is immediately readily understood by most of them. I questioned why "potop" was not used and I was told that the Czech-speakers preferred a word that included "plav" in it - that they actually wanted to use "zaplava" as the word, but the S-C's wanted to have the word start more closely to their word poplava. In the end they compromised on POPLAVOD because #1 it started with "PO"" (common to both languages), #2 - it include "PLAV" - (discussed above), and #3 it ended with VOD - water - a word common to all of the Slavic languages. * > I suggest that we use both word forms equally: "POPLAVOD" and "POTOP" --Steevenusx 17:10, 16 August 2009 (UTC) ---- 17 AUGUST 2009 - Steevenovij komentar na Andrejovij informaciu o tri (3) glosi dla "potop": Andrej - I do not understand how you come up with 3 votes for potop. Using the same entry data, here is the Steen-Voting-Machine results I received: *''potop'' 1.125 votes *''povod(en)'' 2 votes *''pavodok'' 1.5 votes TOTAL = 3.5 votes *''poplava'' .875 votes *''povin'' 0.25 votes. *''navodnenie'' .75 votes ---- *'– potop: 1.125 votes (77 mln. speakers)' *'– povod': 1 votes (50 mln. speakers)' *'– povoden': 1 votes (18 mln. speakers)' *'– poplava: 0.875 votes (23 mln. speakers)' *'– pavodok: 0.5 votes (145 mln. speakers)' *'– pavodka: 0.5 votes (9 mln. speakers)' *'– povin': 0.25 votes (47 mln. speakers)' *'– navodnenie: 0.25 votes (9 mln. speakers)' *'– navodnenije: 0.5 votes (145 mln. speakers)' I understand that you do not look favorably on "constructed words" - or what you called in English "glued-together words" - such as "POPLAVOD". Nonetheless, you do suggest in your email that we use a kind of constructed word - "ZATOPENIE" from a "common root word" of "topit". I do not see the difference between the construction of "ZATOPENIE" and "POPLAVOD" (or perhaps "ZAPLAVOD"?) - because both use Slavic root words ... "PLAV" and "VOD" SLOVIO already uses, as you wrote, both "POTOP" and "ZATOPENIE" - so these are already in the SLOVIOSKI vocabulary for that reason. "POPLAVOD" was NOT my suggestion, as I noted above. But I repeat that it was the suggested "kompromisnjo slovo" between the CZECH and SERBO-CROATION speakers in our European offices. STEEVEN CONCLUDES BY WRITING: IF YOU FEEL THAT STRONGLY ABOUT NOT USING "poplavod", then we can keep the SLOVIO words only - "POTOP" and "ZATOPENIE" :>) --Steevenusx 15:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC) ---- ANDREJ writes: First, about the voting. I don't know how the machine works... It doesn't work in my browser. But I follow strictly the written instructions: *1 vote for Russian *1 vote for Ukrainian and Belarusian *1 vote for Polish *1 vote for Czech and Slovak *1 vote for Slovenian and Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian *1 vote for Bulgarian and Macedonian **If the languages within one group don't agree on one word, ½ vote is given to one and ½ vote to another. If two candidate words have the same number of votes, population decides. **And think what if one language (e.g. Russian) has 3,4,...10 translation of the same word! You won't give each word 1/4,... 1/10 vote, will you? If this language uses the word, it must have full vote anyway! And also even if machine (that is narrow-minded by its nature) counts pavodok and pavodka as two different words, the human should correct it? I have just one question to poplavod. What criteria allows Slovioski to have a word that is understandable to only half of the target group (while better alternatives are possible)? zatopienie is Polish word btw, zatopenie is Slovak, and Czech use zatopení. Russian word is затопление. It is not artifical. ---- STEEVEN reponds: # Alas, the Voting Machine does not work with Google Chrome or Fire-Fox, for some reason. I must use Internet Explorer only for Voting Machine to work! # Andrej, you asked: What criteria allows Slovioski to have a word that is understandable to only half of the target group (while better alternatives are possible)? ##'My response:' If there are better alternatives possible which are better understood than any newly-constructed word, then we should probably use the "better alternative(s)". However, the word for "FLOOD" is, in my opinion, a good example where there are no really clear understandings for all Slavic languages. None of the Polish dictionaries clearly define "zatopienie" - they do, however, suggest "záplava", "zátopa", "wylew" and "zatapiac" (last one as a Verb). # FINALLY - please note that above I suggested that: ##''' IF YOU FEEL THAT STRONGLY ABOUT NOT USING''' "poplavod", then we can keep the SLOVIO words only - "POTOP" and "ZATOPENIE" ...or perhaps "ZATOPA"??????? :>) --Steevenusx 17:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC) Potop is used nearly in all languages, even in Polish (please, google "potop, zatopienie" as one request and you will find the first link to a page in Polish!) zatopienie, as I wrote you, is used in at least 4 languages that have 3 votes, some of others use verb "zatopit" in variations (for example, Ukrainian затоплювати). I think it's more than enough to choose these two words instead of artifical "poplavod" understandable to only half of the target group. These are better alternatives. So, finally we come to potop, zatopenie. --Moraczewski 15:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC) ---- I changed this on 17 August. Potop, Zatopenie are listed as No. 1 and No.2 on WORD page for "FLOOD". --Steevenusx 16:28, 20 August 2009 (UTC) ---- IJzeren Jan Comments Greetings. Just a quick comment: First, I again emphasize that SLOVIOSKI is 'NOT' SLOVIANSKI. '''Slovioski' includes and ENCOURAGES logical constructions - not just natural constructions (although that is not the case here)'' It is nowhere said that Slovianski allows for natural contructions only. I'd rather say that constructions are supposed to be simultaneously logical and based on natural stuff. To give an example: tvorit' means "to create", the ending '-tel'' is the person performing the act, and so a creator is a tvoritel'. Once we know that, there's no need to check in every Slavic dictionary whether this form really exists or not (instead of something ending on -nik, -ec or whatever). Slovianski's naturalism goes for word roots, endings and the like, not for every individual word or word form. Yet, poplavod looks a bit like a zxrakula form to me. I'm not saying forms like that aren't allowed to exist (even in Slovianski!), but only when they really help making things understandable, which is not the case here. Indeed, potop exists in Polish, too: it is more biblical than powódź, but completely understandable. As this seems to be the case for other languages, too, I'd go for this form. Povoden is a far worse choice, at least from a Polish perspective: it reminds very much of powodzenie ("success"). IJzeren Jan 14:54, November 4, 2009 (UTC) Steeven's Comments on Jan's I have deleted "poplavod" I discussed this with our people in Praha and S-C ("poplavod" was "their" created-word). They write that they can live without it . . . . . . :>) --Steevenusx 16:21, November 4, 2009 (UTC) :That's good. As a matter of fact, inspired by the ongoing Relay, I'm reading up a bit on Slovioski. I must say: I like what I have seen so far! I'll try to make some additions to the pages as far as Polish and Slovianski are concerned. As for "poplavod", my comment was not only directed at this particular word. I simply wanted to rectify a misunderstanding regarding Slovianski. Cheers, IJzeren Jan 19:37, November 4, 2009 (UTC)